Longtime podcast collaborators Allan Schwartzman and Charlotte Burns sit down for a conversation about an art industry in profound flux. After almost a decade of podcasts tracking how everything has changed, the duo is now looking ahead—and the view is complex.

In this frank conversation, they discuss everything from the art market to museum models to artists that history has overlooked. This is a reckoning with the art world at a crossroads.

Schwartzman reflects on challenging times but also opportunities. What new possibilities emerge when old systems transform?

What if we could reimagine how art is supported?

Tune in wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us @schwartzman.art for more, and subscribe to our Substack at artandschwartzman.substack.com. 

Find out more about The Art World: What If…?! at schwartzmanand.com/the-art-world.

The artist Agnes Denes saw it coming. Machines taking over. Technology converging with consciousness. History on a pendulum swinging perilously back and forth.

In this intimate conversation recorded with host Charlotte Burns in Denes' downtown Manhattan loft apartment and studio space, they talk about her work. When Denes wrote about these things more than 50 years ago, it was prescient, unsettling, and brilliant.

Now the artist is in her mid-90s and is still writing and making art every day. And she’s still asking the questions that matter: What is humanity's purpose? What is love? How do we survive?

Denes planted wheat in downtown Manhattan on a landfill that would become Battery Park City. She made ecological art before climate change was front-page news. Her work spans conceptual art, poetry, drawings, installations, sculptures, writings, and more. Twenty thousand pieces, mostly never seen.

Today? She hands out wheat seeds like promises. Plant hope. Harvest peace. Become part of the art.

The questions never change, she says, only their importance shifts.

What if we listened?

In this bonus episode, we’re joined by the newly appointed director and CEO of the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum and Foundation, Dr. Mariët Westermann, who is the first female appointed to the role. Mariët oversees the “constellation” of museums—four over three continents united, she says, in one mission, “to create opportunities for anyone to engage with the transformative and connective power of art and artists”. Mariët is inheriting opportunities and challenges, and we delve into some of those, from the back histories to the budgets. She talks to us about the future of the museum—from plans for the opening of the Guggenheim Abu Dhabi to the nuts and bolts of balancing the books. One of the key changes Mariët advocates for is a shift in the institutional mindset. Rather than taking a defensive stance, where the museum might try to address gaps or criticisms reactively, she hopes for a move towards a more open approach. "We are learning communities," she says. "We're full of curious people. Artists are curious." All this and much more in this special episode, which brings to an end our second season.

Join us for the almost final episode of this season where we welcome back our incredible team of editorial advisors who guide, suggest—and even challenge— what we’ve discussed in this series.

Joining us are Deana Haggag (program officer at the Mellon Foundation), Mia Locks (curator and co-founder of Museums Moving Forward), Jay Sanders (curator, writer, and director of Artists Space), and of course Allan Schwartzman. Together with host Charlotte Burns, they reflect on the wonderful and wide-ranging conversations with our guests this season, talking about creativity, the nature of change, the future of museums, the balance between wealth and art, and new thinking in philanthropy.

What if we focus on what’s urgent? What if we treat art like it’s essential? All this and MUCH more…

What if you were embroiled in a public workplace controversy? And what happens on the other side of the headlines—would you walk away from your field, or would you reengage with it to try and improve upon it?

This very special episode is a break from the norm. In it, we discuss museums and change—and what it takes to get to that change. We’re joined by three curators—Mia Locks, director and co-founder of Museums Moving Forward; Fatoş Üstek, curator and former director of the Liverpool Biennial; and Laura Raicovich, writer, curator, and former president and executive director of the Queens Museum. Each of them has been through a public furor. In those moments, they have found a lack of institutional support and, afterward, each has shifted from their previous career paths. But each has re-engaged with the field in more ambitious and ultimately hopeful ways. Museums can't be taken for granted. But what does it take to create change? Tune in now for more.

This time, we’re joined by the artist LaToya Ruby Frazier, just before the opening of her major new exhibition ‘Monuments of Solidarity’ at the Museum of Modern Art in New York. “This exhibition spiritually uplifts people,” she says. “It inspires people to be the change they need, but it also inspires them to be better human beings. To look beyond the self to look beyond individualistic desires to think about the fact that you are connected to an ecosystem and a world around you. People won't be the same. This is a transformative exhibition.” We delve into LaToya’s faith and the impact of art on our lives, its power not only to shine light into the darkness but to move through people and communities and so to create profound, lasting change. Enjoy.

In this episode, we visit the Legacy Sites in Montgomery, Alabama, including the newly opened Freedom Monument Sculpture Park, a 17-acre site on the banks of the Alabama River. We interview their founder, the lawyer and civil rights hero, Bryan Stevenson, who says that a founding narrative of racial difference was created in America that “was like an infection. I believe the infection has spread. We've never treated that infection and the consequences of it are still with us today.” The US has never created cultural sites that have “motivated people to say, ‘Never again can we tolerate racial bigotry, can we tolerate racial violence, can we tolerate the kind of indifference to these basic human rights’. So, that's what we're trying to achieve.” Hope and resilience inform the Legacy Sites. “I've always argued that hopelessness is the enemy of justice and that hope is an essential feature of what we do. I have to believe things I haven't seen,” Stevenson says. “I think we need an era of truth and justice, truth and reconciliation, truth and restoration, truth and repair,” Stevenson adds. “But we can't skip the truth-telling part.”

This time we welcome Karen Patterson, the Executive Director of the Ruth Foundation for the Arts. The organization immediately became a major player when it launched in 2022, announcing plans to give away up to $20 million a year to arts organizations, thanks to a $440 million bequest from Ruth DeYoung Kohler. We delve into the what-ifs of philanthropy, the foundation's ethos, and its ambitious initiatives. Through a focus on generosity, experimentation, and consideration, Ruth Arts aims to transform the philanthropic landscape. “What if we made a big difference? What if people saw themselves as valuable?” Karen asks. “What if people saw themselves as cared for?”

“The market is poised for a big fall, so it's more ‘when’, than ‘what if’,” says Allan Schwartzman, founder of the podcast. He’s back on the show to talk all about the state of the art market and the broader implications of its changing dynamics for the artists and for the cultural landscape at large. "Greatness doesn't grow at the same rate as a population does," says Allan. "Greatness is extremely rare. And right now we're at a moment where I think there's greater confusion than ever about what actually is going on in art and what will be seen as significant 20 or 30 years from now."

We welcome back Kemi Ilesanmi, the former executive director of The Laundromat Project and one of the standout stars of our first season. In season one, Kemi was just about to head off on the trip of a lifetime around 13 countries, including 10 in Africa. She promised to come back and tell us how the trip changed her ‘what ifs.’ “I'm looking for freedom of movement, freedom of ideas, and freedom of manifestation of those ideas. Right now, it feels like I can only find that by working outside of any singular institution.”

Kemi talks about creating a “beautiful, joyful, sustainable, cultural infrastructure for Black and brown people across the globe,” and asks, “What if that were possible? And what if I could help with that? And who else could help with that?”

For the second part of our interview with Koyo Kouoh, the chief curator and executive director of Zeitz MOCAA, we hear about how she has worked to overhaul the infrastructure of the institution internally as well as better connect the museum externally within Cape Town. Koyo talks about how “colonialism as an enterprise, as a model of global relating, has done a lot of harm that we are still mending and attending to.” She says: “That is a field of thinking, a space of emotion and knowledge that I am deeply passionate about. And that is why my investment in the space of Black geographies is so profound.”

Joining us from Cape Town in South Africa is Koyo Kouoh, the chief curator and executive director of Zeitz MOCAA for the first in a two-part special. Originally destined for a career in finance, Koyo talks about her journey into the art world, and from Basel in Switzerland to Dakar in Senegal, where she founded RAW Material Company in 2008. She tells us about her move to South Africa in 2019 to take over at Zeitz MOCAA, a new institution, but one in crisis. “We need to take the time to do the things that are urgent, that are essential, that are necessary,” Koyo says. “And, for me, building out institutions on the continent is a matter of urgency.”

Legendary art dealer Barbara Gladstone joins us for a very rare interview from the studio in New York. What would she do differently if she started a gallery today? “I probably wouldn't do it,” she says.

Barbara has been at the top of the business since the 1980s and now represents more than 70 artists and estates. She tells us how she started out with a small print business, and how things developed from there. We talk about art now, the future of the gallery, and what she would change about the art market, including the “idea that collecting is shopping, because I think that there is something that art adds to life,” she says. “What is really interesting is that it's not over,” she says. “It's not even over when the artist dies because there's constant evaluation and re-thinking going on. And when you put one work in proximity to another work 50 years later, something new can happen. I mean, I think that's why it's important.”

“West African culture is starting to become the future,” says Phillip Ihenacho, the director of the newly established Museum of West African Art. What if you built a new museum in West Africa, where a glorious ancient history contrasts with a brutal colonial one? What if we really considered the full meaning of restitution and repair? Can a cultural organization build a stable financial future by becoming its own landlord? Phillip and his team are building not just a new museum — but an entire neighborhood set within the ancient walls of Benin City in Edo. Phillip talks to us about how talent and creativity are thriving in West Africa, where 70% of the population is under 30 and he talks frankly about the challenges of developing opportunities and infrastructure. This is an “incredibly important moment”, Phillip says. “We need to try and grab it with both hands and take full advantage of it.”

In this episode, we welcome Jarl Mohn, the LA art collector and philanthropist who founded the E! Entertainment network in his professional life, among other impressive media and business ventures. Mohn became a DJ at a young age, partly in an attempt to escape the realities of life in a state foster home. Success in his professional career led him to the art world - which he initially distrusted as an industry “designed to take advantage of idiots like us”. Mohn talks to us about what changed his mind, and how he ended up building two distinct art collections. An ardent Angeleno, Mohn tells us how LA is the future of art and reveals his secret dream of pulling off a very slow heist involving Walter de Maria’s ‘The Lightning Field’.

What if we could create spaces of solidarity, communication, and support? This time we explore the passions and multiple projects of the President and Director of Sharjah Art Foundation, Hoor Al Qasimi. She established the Foundation in 2009 as a catalyst and advocate for the arts, not only in Sharjah, in the United Arab Emirates but also in the wider region and around the world. She was originally on her way to becoming an artist, but now says she doesn’t think she’d have succeeded because she has trouble “focusing on one thing. Hence the multiple jobs.” We talk about the round of generic art fairs - which, in Hoor’s words “hurt her eyes” - and what it would be like if we were liberated enough NOT to have to follow the market. What if we trusted our intuition and spent more time with - and getting to know - emerging artists? Enjoy!

Described as the “next generation of leadership”, in this episode we welcome Salome Asega, the director of NEW INC in New York and an accomplished artist, whose work is at the cutting edge of creativity and technology. Salome’s ability to look towards—and build—the future shines through in this conversation with host Charlotte Burns. Part of her work at NEW INC, she says, is about creating chance encounters for creative people who feel like “choosing your own adventure.” What if we focused on new inventions, narratives and opportunities? Tune in for more.

In this episode, host Charlotte Burns is joined by artist Alvaro Barrington, who brings as much generosity of spirit to this conversation as he does to his art practice. Fundamentally curious, Alvaro wants to connect with as many people as possible and to make art that is as relevant to people today as Hip Hop was to him as a kid growing up in New York in the 1990s. But, as the art world has expanded, he says, it’s also become narrower in terms of who gets in. Alvaro is interested in changing that, creating less hierarchy and more connections. What if art could be as beloved as music by Beyonce or Taylor Swift? “Art has to be more in people’s lives,” he says, “It just has to figure that out.”

We’re back! In this episode, host Charlotte Burns talks to Jessica Morgan, the director of the Dia Art Foundation. She has revitalized the institution, which is celebrating their 50th anniversary, since arriving in 2015, bringing new energy and a distinct vision to the museum and creating change behind-the-scenes as much as she has to the work on display. In this episode, Jessica talks openly about the museum field, from funding structures to her future plans, from unions to boards. What if Jessica ran the art world? She tells us what she would do first.

Welcome back to The Art World: What If…?!, the podcast all about imagining new futures. To kick off the second season in style, host Charlotte Burns is joined by the phenomenally talented, Grammy-nominated, singer and songwriter, Alice Smith who is, she says, currently at work on her masterpiece. This is a frank, free—and very fun—conversation, with lots of surprises. Alice delves into what it really means to be creative, and why it matters. What if she could pick her dream role? You might be surprised. Tune in for more.

This time hosts Charlotte Burns and Allan Schwartzman welcome their team of editorial advisors Deana Haggag, Mia Locks and Jay Sanders. They’re the brilliant trio who’ve helped steer this season’s conversations acting as an independent sounding board lending editorial advice and expertise—all essential in the creation of this podcast. This is (almost) the season finale—so time to reflect and look back at some of the surprises, delights and, of course, the many "What Ifs". Listen out in the next few weeks for some special bonus episodes!

What if we supported artists in taking moonshots? This week we’re taking a tour around Glenstone museum in Potomac, Maryland— one of the largest and most ambitious private institutions in America, fusing art, architecture, and nature. This wide-ranging conversation between Glenstone’s co-founder and director, Emily Rales, and host Charlotte Burns, covers the art inside the museum and how to create more meaningful visitor experiences to the Glenstone foundation and future philanthropic plans. “Our values are immutable,” Emily says. “Art is essential to life. And sometimes when I say that to people, they're like, what does that even mean? But I really believe that art is essential to our civilization and to humanity.” She adds: “Long-term defines the way we think. We're not intending to go out guns a-blazing and then sun-setting the foundation within 20 years. We want this to continue to be sustained in perpetuity—and we really mean that.”

What if we felt able to be more reckless? What if we weren’t afraid to make more mess? What if we all challenged our comfort? This time, Charlotte Burns talks to one of her personal heroes, the artist Pope.L. Probably best known for his public performance art or his crawls through city streets, Pope.L uses his body—literally —to ask questions about race and inequality. He’s risked his own safety and physicality for his work, and he isn’t finished yet. When Charlotte asks how messy he’d like to get, he replies: “Oh man, you know, like removing every wall in a space and just having no differentiated areas. That would be one way. The other one would probably be use of outside and inside. Don't make that a differentiation. Right. And then have them agree that we'll do the show in winter. That would be fun!”

What if we could change the dependence on capital and be more engaged with the enhancement of the people who work in our institutions? This episode, Charlotte Burns is joined by Kathy Halbriech, the outgoing director of the Robert Rauschenberg Foundation, who’s led some of the most dynamic institutions in the art world. They discuss freedom, finances, and what the future holds for museums and those who work in them. “You could not pay me enough money to be a museum director at this point in my life,” says Kathy. “Maybe that's just because I really know what the job is, and I think it is one of the most misunderstood and genuinely taxing jobs.”

Time to take stock this episode with hosts Charlotte Burns and Allan Schwartzman. We look back at some of the big ideas that have emerged throughout the series so far. From change and creativity to finance and futures, we discuss what’s amazed, delighted, and even filled us with hope. “I was the person who came up with this idea of what if,” says Allan. “At the time, I thought I had a lot of ‘what ifs,’ which were really not as much about utopian thinking as they were about bringing an audience to consider another possibility, to throw out assumptions. Having now gone through a number of interviews, I realize that I don't have a ‘what if’ within me!” Tune in for this very special episode.

We’re still in the city of angels for our second special episode asking ‘What if LA is the future?’ Join host, Charlotte Burns, as she drives from the East Side to Korea Town and out to Santa Monica. We visit the studio of artist and filmmaker, Cauleen Smith, whose life and work centres around building a better world. We also drop in on Kibum Kim, partner and co-founder at Commonwealth and Council - a gallery building a supportive community of artists - who wants to challenge the high-speed efficiency of the current art world model. Both embody what it means to live in the realm of possibility. “I guess I'm, what I'm doing is always looking to like the relatively recent past of models where people really did do things differently quite successfully,” says Cauleen.

Join us for more.

What if Los Angeles is the future? This episode, Charlotte Burns visits the city for the first of two extra special episodes. We’re at the Hammer museum with its chief curator, Connie Butler, before heading over to meet Sue Bell Yank, who’s executive director at Clockshop. Both are experimenting with how to do things differently and how to make LA a sustainable place to be and to create art. Nowhere encapsulates the need to imagine radical new possibilities more than Los Angeles. “LA is an amazing place to think about what our possible futures could look like,” says Sue Bell Yank. “It's a place that’s at the bleeding edge of a lot of crises, from wildfires to floods. How cultural organizations fit into that is really interesting.” Join us for more.

What if each artist had a focus of research? What if all the possible topics that could be explored in art were delegated to different artists? This time, American Artist joins Charlotte Burns.

One of the most interesting artists working today, American produces deeply thoughtful work that is as enmeshed in digitization and technology as it is in history and alternate realities. In 2013, they changed their name to American Artist as part of a constant negotiation of how much of themselves they put into their work.

American talks about how their art tackles police violence in the US. They also discuss a newer body of work centering on the life and writings of sci-fi novelist Octavia E. Butler. This is tough work, says American, but ultimately hopeful: “If I didn’t feel strongly that things could change, I wouldn’t even bother. But I want everyone else to try as hard as I do.”

What if we didn't have to push past human capacity to make work happen in the world? What if we had spaces of incubation that would allow us to then push our imagination to its experimental lengths?

This episode, Charlotte Burns is joined by Rashida Bumbray whose career straddles different realms within culture. A choreographer and curator, Rashida aims to create new spaces of imagination, empowerment and connection. While the data and the daily realities of the art world can reflect a scarcity, Rashida’s action, notably the recent organization of artist Simone Leigh’s Loophole of Retreat Summit, reflects an abundance that is intergenerational, interdisciplinary, and inspirational. Subscribe for more.

In this episode, we get into some of the biggest What Ifs —about virtue and value, about life and loss. Host Charlotte Burns is joined by one of the most thoughtfully provocative (or cunning, as he’d say) artists of our time, Paul Chan. He made his name in the early 2000s with film and media works, and by 2008 had found significant success. Then, he stopped making art. Now he’s back with a show called Paul Chan: Breathers, where, influenced by sky-dancers, he literally shapes air. He says, “Maybe one way to talk about pleasure is a capacity to control our own time. Time may be the only non-human thing I really care about losing. I can lose everything. I think I've lost everything. I'm willing to lose it all, but I'm not willing to lose time, and that to me is more precious than anything else.”

Tune in and join us. New episodes every Thursday.

You can purchase Paul Chan’s book, Above All Waves: Wisdom from Tominaga Nakamoto, the Philosopher Rumored to Have Inspired Bitcoin here.